The Shining Source

Here's a quandary that's been bugging me for a while - and still is.

The screen resolution issue has finally been resolved, and it's been bumped from 320*200 to 800*600. Quite a jump, but the graphics are now twice as big so it really doesn't look too different. The main reason to increase the res was so the lobby interface was actually usable. It's no fun writing a chat room for 320*200 res.

The next challenge is the control system, again with regards to the lobby (but spreading to the rest of the game). Should mouse control be a feature? I'm somewhat reluctant to move to a mouse control only system, and mixing mouse/keyboard feels...wrong (e.g. controlling your character with the arrow keys but using the mouse in menus). Am I stuck in the past / trying to be too close to the originals?

In summary:

For mouse:
 * Much, much better for complex interfaces like items, chatting etc.
 * Point and click your units in battle. Right click units to view stats etc.

For keyboard:
 * Just like the old style
 * Moving a character around the map using arrows just feels right.

Would anyone be against a mixture of mouse / keyboard? So the mouse would be used for navigating menus and such, and the keyboard for moving the character? At a stretch I could allow all mouse or all keyboard controls, but that really does make things complex. However, if there's mixed opinions it's probably what I'll do.

Any thoughts on this?

I understand the issue mate but i just couldnt get past the odd feel of a mouse-only sort of atmosphere.

Even for the menus i suppose im just too used to the original controls

Keyboard only could work, just have to go about it as though you were playing with a controller only. If people are afraid of / controls in the chat you could have a box of commands that are accessable through use of the arrow keys and activated through a stroke of enter or some other key.

If someone asked you to join them or fight them or what have you a dialouge  box could pop up (or a windows error box ) and you hit a key for whatever is highlighted..and have the highlight move by use of the arrow keys. Or you could have a Y or N sort of prompt.

If people are getting annoyed with people wanting them to play with them there could be a DND or Go Away Toggle to where they are unable to recieve any sort of requests and they can go about their business in peace if they so wished.

I'll think about this alot and see if i can come up with anything else mate...But i do understand what you mean about the wrong feel, and for better or for worse the Shining Feel was one of SO's major strongpoints

Using a mouse in battle isn't necessarily wrong, but using it to navigate a town from a top-down perspective just wouldn't work, in my opinion. It'd be boring.

I think mouse-driven menus are a good idea because they feel natural to us now, thanks to Windows. Although it's possible to navigate just using a keyboard, it's much more intuitive to use a mouse. Having said that, as long as the menus are well-structured there's no reason why you can't just use the up and down arrows to use them.

I've convinced myself there. Keyboard only - it's got enough buttons to cope with pretty much everything you could want; it's pretty versatile.[/url]

Sean: I read the first line of your post, then went on to ace a kudos challenge on Project Gotham (two perfect laps), and whilst doing that I managed to have exactly the same idea as you. Weird.

I'm pretty sure everything could be done with keyboard only. I shall ponder it some more, but you both make good cases.

Great minds think alike!

...not to say my mind is anywhere near the greatness of yours...or anything...

*cough*

Hmm... why not do both? Most recent games can be played with either keyboard or mouse (think of Guild Wars, for example).

I think hybrid controls would work best.  Though it could be heavy on the keyboard-side.  Menus can be navigated with arrows and/or hot key the options, making a letter of each menu option 'trigger' it?

I can only see a mouse being especially useful for chat, chat/options, and game options 'outside' the main game screen....if that made any sense...?

I think it comes down to two things which the mouse control could be really useful for.
Items and inventory - are we talking about a similar method like Shining Force - 1 equipped weapon and 1 equipped ring - 4 items carried per unit?

because if so, keyboard control isn't a problem.
If you're thinking about expanding it to include armour, gloves, boots, helmets etc - you'd need to be pretty innovative to make it right with the keyboard.

Chat.  If using a press enter to chat to those you're with and /w name to whisper etc will work, then again, that's fine.
If the game organisation requires chat windows and such, then mouse is again required.

Otherwise I'd go with keyboard only.

no joypads?

If I go for all keyboard, then joypad will be an option. I don't have one though, so it's pretty hard for me to test =P



Yet another design decision I'm unsure about. I think all these questions really boil down to how close I want to stick to the original feel. Adding mouse control and different armour areas might push it away from a Shining Force 2 style game that can be played online to something else entirely, and I'm not sure I want to go that far. As usual, any input on this is appreciated =)

SF2 is my all-time favorite, but even so I know there's plenty of times I've wished they of included of forms of equipment.

That said, I'd rather see this stay as close to 'the original feel' as possible.  So if there were a poll, I'd vote for staying with tradition, and just keep an open mind in the distant future for the inclusion of other equipment.

Plus, the simplier you keep it now, the fast progress can be made, I would think anyway.

If you did want to include perhaps one more type of equipment, you could do "armour" alone without breaking it down.

Otherwise I'd say the simple way is probably best "for the time being".  If for some reason the playing community grew and you were to release a version balanced for more players - perhaps at that point adding more inventory slots and equipment types would be worthwhile for the whole "fake economy of goods".  I don't see it really being worthwhile until such a time as you have a few hundred active players, or until the game world and items are exhausted by a large proportion the players being high level players.

So uhh what was I saying.  Oh yeah.  The simple thing is good, just your warehouse idea won't have the same impact.  

In a rush, so I can't quite read through the topic thoroughly, but, in my opinion, it depends on what you're doing.  I think if you want to satisfy Shining fans, you should include keyboard regardless.  But, that doesn't mean not having mouse is the way to go too.  A bit of both would suffice, maybe even having full control for both, if you want to put that much time into it.  Im not sure how I can get my point across without cofusing people...

For my own Shining Type game project i plan to have mouse support only for the main menu.

But surely it would be more difficult to implement when that happened, and alienate the existing players who were used to there being infinite supplies of everything.

As for armour, items and stuff, I'm in favour of four items per person with a storage facility accessible between battles. One unit of armour and one weapon makes it easier to see which item gives the best stat raises, if you ask me.

Also, as I explained to Ty earlier, I'm not really down with the kingdom idea. He said you could basically swear allegiance to a country, such as Grans Island, and walk around there and so forth, and your conquests in battle would all count towards some kind of world standing. I'm not sure the Shining system lends itself to world domination-types of games, and besides, it sort of bends the original scope of the game which was, I thought, to deliver an online version of the Shining battle system, with good bits in too.

And I'm spent.